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She's launched multiple companies, she's incubated brands at Walmart, she's overseen an entire incubation portfolio at Walmart and now she's boiling all of our expertise in our network into a company called Little Fish that helps organizations leverage fractional executives. Please welcome Arlon Davitch. You're listening to sea sweet blueprint, the show for sea sweet leaders. Here we discussed nobs, approaches to organizational readiness and digital transformation. Let's start the show. Hey, areland, thanks for joining me. Thank you for having me. So today we're going to talk a little bit about talent in a in a world of short supply. Do you have a magic recipe for me to get talent in short supply? I have elements of I'm ingredients for your recipe. I can't say I can solve all your problems, but I might be able to, like, help you with some decent plast for the for the beginning of it. Delicious. Yeah, I mean because it seems to be getting worse. You know, things keep changing, or on the hockey stick of innovation and Change, and it's just harder and harder to find top talent and they're going where they want. One thing that you've been doing, which I find very interesting is really building out capabilities for fractional executives and I love to understand. You know, any time I've talked to someone, their first question is how the heck does that work? You know, what does that mean? You know, they kind of expect that someone's they need to be plugged into the business seven to be able to help, and I'd like to squash some of those few years. Yeah, well, I think the first thing is the rubric that I've heard in executive search is you are looking for someone who gets it, they understand the job, they can do it, so they have the functional skill set, they want to do it and ideally they've done it before. And in an unconstrained world you would meaning no talent shortages, no budget shortages, you would have every every executive as a full time person in your business. But we all know that budgets are fixed and sometimes you don't. There is a constraint there and what I think we're seeing now, as a result of the covid pandemic, but also, I think, as a result of what executives, how executives have experienced lives since the pandemic is that there is a huge shortage of people who had done it before, because those people don't necessarily want to do it again or Nesit or want to do it at the same cost. So before I go into like you know the use cases for this and you know how far how tactically it can work, I'll just share my own personal experience. So, before the pandemic I was working at Walmart and I started in at Walmart as an entrepreneur in residence and I started a brand. They're called Allswell, which is a mattress, a home brand with a hero product of mattresses, and I was president of that brand, grew it for three years and it was quite successful for Walmart. So they were like this is great, let's have you do more of these, and so I was a get but I this is a full time job for me. How am I supposed to replicate my efforts? And what we realized was that the expertise of having done it before wasn't a full time job. The full time job was in doing it again. And so the model that we created there was I became sort of an UBER GM or a group president, and I was able to up level. I was able to hire more junior GM's who wanted to do it, could do it, got it but hadn't necessarily done it before, and then scale my having done it before across those rants. And that was not only very effective but it was immensely rewarding for me personally because, in addition to doing a good job for the company, I was able to build the skill sets, or support the building of these amazing people into great GM's and presidents and those kinds of roles. And this applies not just to that functional role,... |
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...would apply to other skill sets in the executive suite. Once you've they're hard to get. Their hard to get that first crack at Cmo or your first crack at president, GM CEO. But once you you know so there's a huge pool of people, I think, that can do it, want to do it and get it that just need there an opportunity for a first crack. So what I'm trying to do now is is with little fish, is replicate that outside of Walmart. Create a structure for people who have done it before and get it, can do it, help them level up people who haven't done it before in a way that doesn't necessarily come at such an extreme cost as sometimes a hundred percent daytoday operating role might. It's so interesting because I've definitely fallen victim to wanting the person that's done it two times before, maybe even three times before. I bring them on and what I find is there so disconnected or maybe uninterested in the actual getting it done. You know that it or maybe they've even grown accustomed to having this team around them to get it done. They just don't even remember what it was like when they were doing it for the first time. And then it just sets it up for failure. It's funny. This is APPROPO. We are looking for a CEO right now. We've gone through that, that conversation of do we want someone who's been there, done it before, or do we want someone who's just on the verge of they're ready for it? There, they're just ready for it now and there. We keep always use that word hungry, but I feel like it does senior executives a disservice to like think of them is not hungry, they're just hungry for something else, I think, is what you're saying right well, I think the opportunity for something like the need for Fret, because there's such a need now for supply, companies are going to need to be more flexible in terms of how they engage talent, and that's why I think that there's an opportunity for these models to flourish. I mean they've already they've always been around, but I think that they're it's going to grow as a piece of the talent landscape. The two primary use cases, so a little fish. We do both fractional and interim executive roles, and the two main use cases that we're seeing right now are the first is I call a pinch hitter. So I got a call the beginning of let's say it was might have been September, the beginning of September, and it's a pretty big brand, like a hundred fifty million dollar direct to consumer business, and they said we do half of our business in queue four and our CMO just quit. So of course they're going to hire a full time CMO to come in and but those searches are taking on average now six months. So they they need the know. They have a lot of doers there. They have channel managers, they have, you know, analytical people, they have product people, but what they really needed as a pinch hitter to steal the ship, to steer the ship while that search got done and to give them time to find the right person. So that's one use cases, that pinch hitter scenario. The other use cases the one I was describing earlier, which is what I call the level, the level upper right. So let's say you have that rising star in your ranks or you want to hire somebody who's more of a rising star for a number of reasons, but they have a gap. They either their gap is an executive skill set or a functional area of expertise, or even it could be the CEO who has a gap. The CEO knows that to grow their business. And ever, you know, I worked with an insurance company who a great, very high performing insurance business who historically has always sold through agents, and then the pandemic happened and they said, Oh wow, we're now considering going direct consumer as a part of our strategy, or wanting to at least evaluate should they be doing that? And so the CEO wanted to get smart on the strategy there and really wanted that to live within his purview. And so that's, you know, another example of how a fractional exect can be useful. And there's in their case they weren't going to hire achieve digital officer because D Toc Wasn't a business line yet. It would be huge just cost out the door there. But... |
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...they said we should really be investing in bringing in the right level of talent, but just at a more fractional level until we develop our strategy, get our legs underneath us and decide really what our go forward plan is here. So that's the other the other use cases like that level up or kind of scenario. Level upper is great because I feel like it really it enables that hiring from within. I find so many times, you know, organizations they want to hire from with them, but the like can we really afford this risk, because they're really just not ready yet, and so then they end up hiring from outside, and I that's disruptive sometimes. But I want to first focus on the pitch hitter, because one thing about that I'm curious of is how do you not fall into what I'd call like the Substitute Teacher Syndrome, where like everyone knows that your tempt you know there there. Are they going to take you seriously? Are they going to like buy into what it is that you're doing. Of You. Have you found any frameworks or kind of tips that help avoid that? Yeah, well, look for I think it's the first thing comes down to. Not every executive can be a fractional executive. It takes a certain you know, people flex in different areas. It takes a lot of the leadership quality. It's less about the content area expertise. That is important, but it's also about process and Gravytas and leadership ability and ability to what do they call it soft power? You know, lead. Lead when you don't have power, have people follow you when you don't actually have power. So I think the right having the right person is important, and then I think having the right frameworks for engaging is important, and this is what another thing we're trying to build out little fish is, what are those processes that allow an executive to get deep into the content fast so that they can actually be effective at managing that team. So all of our engagements, or at least the since we discovered this, all of our engagements have started with what we call a listening tour, and the listening tour is a way of getting it's a structured way of getting a lot of input from different areas of the business and getting deep into the content fast. I'm curious, you know what, what kind of time frames, because I remember, I don't think this happening that much these days, but it used to be any new top level executive comes in, they don't make really any changes for six to nine months, right, or something like that. But I'm guessing if you're saying deep fast at the listening tour is not that long. I've done listening tours in two weeks. Two weeks is sort of the shortest and the longest would be about a month and a half. And the listening tour isn't just the listening, but it's then since synthesizing, digesting and then socializing back to whoever the the sponsor is, like the CEO. You know, this is what I've heard here. Are the themes that are emerging here is do you agree with this? Because sometimes, like I've been brought in for a project where the scope that I thought we were brought being brought in for after the listening tour, I had to go back to the sponsor and say, based on what I heard, I think a bigger lever a bigger opportunity for us to focus on is is actually why. And you know, without that listening tour I could have been spinning my wheels going down path a, which is what the contract was for, when actually that wasn't going to yield the results or I thought there was a shorter path to the result that they were looking for. As a consulting company, we run into the same thing all the time. I can't I would say, the majority of times where we come into do a and you very quickly, within probably two three weeks, you realize that it's why. But I find that that's also something hard to sell, like we're going to come in and, even though you're asking us for a we're going to tell you why, but I feel like it's truly appreciate. That's how you really are on the credit, though, right is is not just doing what they ask, but truly what's really needed underneath the covers. Yeah, typically, I mean our engagements work in a few different ways, so a listening tour is, I'd say, a best... |
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...practice for all engagements. Typically we start with a sprint, and a sprint is as you were describing. It's a shorter piece of work that you can sell in that is diagnostic in nature but also adds value regardless of what the diagnosis is. So the sprint ideally isn't just a strategy document. It's a listening to or plus a strategy plus at least one deliverable that even if we part ways at the end of this project, you know we're going in with an idea that we think we can structure a sixmonth engagement that will add a tremendous amount of value to the business. We have one client who we can who were now going on eighteen months of an engagement were like this isn't really intim anymore. But it works for everyone, so it's okay. But I think the that sprint, the upfront sprint, is a good way to level set so that you know everyone is you can shape that longer term scope. So it makes sense for it go on. You talked a little bit about what makes you know the skills that that someone is going to do fractional exact needs, some of the soft power. What if someone was to self select out, what are the things that they wouldn't have? Who? What are the traits of people who just wouldn't? This wouldn't work for I think it works for fewer people than it doesn't work for more people than it does work for if that makes sense, maybe one and ten, one in twenty traditional executives would be good for good fractional executives. I think again it goes back to process orientation versus content orientation. And I know plenty of executives who are great at what they do, but they started it one company and they grew up in that one company and twenty years later they're in the sea suite of that business. So they don't have a lot of they have a lot of depths of experience, but not necessarily a lot of breath. And so while they know what works in their company, they haven't tried to thrown a lot of things at a wall to see what doesn't work and to know what what is company specific, what versus, what is domain specific? If that makes sense, it does, and I've even seen that happen where if you take that exact you try to make them fractional at a very similar company, it's still doesn't work because the last company was fifteen years ago. Things are different. It just doesn't apply and they don't have that like broad expertise to China be more. We always use the word athletic. To be more athletic with their skill set. As they're coming in there, I wonder advice. I'm curious advice for people as their leveraging fractional exacts. I'll share some of my stories. Where I've struggled is I'm always trying to find the balance of I want to give them as much information is makes sense, not inundate them in the details, though, so they can look at it fresh right. But then what I'll find? I'll get some advice and I'll give them one more piece of information and they like, oh, that completely changes all of my recommendations and I'm like, oh well, I probably should have told you that before, and so I'm looking for ways that I could better navigate that, as I'm sure many others are out there. Yeah, I I think the best practice I would point to is to be results oriented as opposed to tactics oriented. So I would say to an incoming introm or fractional exact, double my business, right, I want to double top line at you know, with this on the bottom line you figure out how to get there, because if you try to explain all the things in between, all those levers, you're going to miss something. But when you give them the end result that they need to achieve, it gives them the flexibility to find the most direct path between those two points and makes it provides more out the opportunity for the executive to be more autonomous and how they operate. So simple but so hard. You've got these ideas that you're married to, you've probably made a bunch of investments that you want them to be aware of and you know you don't want to throw good money after bad on this one and to just hold back and make sure that you're really just connecting with the outcomes rather than maybe what you're married to. Is Tough. It is tough. It is tough,... |
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...but I think in most of these scenarios you're in a tough spot. You know, first all, business is not easy. You know, I've noticed with a lot of the folks that I used to work with. We had a pretty sweet set up at Walmar. We all loved our jobs and you know, everyone's like on their new in their new gigs. This is hard. This is yeah, work is hard. Business is hard. Very few companies have like a straight line of growth. Everyone is up and down and if you're in the position of needing a pinch hitter, then you're in a tough spot right and if you I wouldn't say that, if you need a level level upper, you're necessarily in a tough spot. That seems like more of an opportunity play. But everyone's in a tough spot now with the supply shortage. You know, even the most Cram Dela cram companies, marquis companies, are having trouble in this regard. So I think just sort of level leveling expectations to in terms of what can you expect from one person in any role, no matter who they are, is always a good way to cavey out your you know, make your expectations more in line with reality. Yeah, man, I've seen exact teams when you're missing one's one part or the wrong person's in the wrong role and it's it sucks, it's not fun and it's amazing the the drastic change it happens once once you get the the right mixture that's going on in there. And I could see we're both the pinch hitter and the level upper can really help that. Let's dig it in a little bit more to the level upper when you are trying to make that decision. Of I think there's also this tendency to be like, we need new blood in here, we need new blood fully in the role, versus hiring someone, you know, growing someone within the organization. How do you start to like, what are the things that you put on the scale to kind of figure out if you're going to grow someone internally versus bring in the level upper? Yeah, well, the first thing is, let's talk about levels. Just let's say the the VP, is the person you would level up and you're deciding whether you level up the VP or you bring in a CMO. I think there's a huge cost advantage of leveling up right because I would say if you give the VP a thirty percent bump, they're going to be thrilled, but a thirty percent bump on the VP is probably half of what you're going to pay for a CMO. So I would always, almost always look for internal talent to level up, but I would also look from a cost perspective. Now, if you're not cost constrained, then you're really just optimizing for the best, like the most the best talent that you can have, and you can sort of compete with the other folks, for those top fifty people who are getting calls from the same you know, from every company under the Sun wanting those top ycmos. So cost consideration is one thing I would put on that scale. Another thing I would think about is how easy it is to supplement their gaps. So do they have a functional skill gap or do they have an executive competency skill gap? So I've seen one vp who I know and love a lot, benefit tremendously just from an executive coach. She had great hard skills, needed a little bit more coaching on some of softer and management skills. We got her an executive coach and was able to level her up to a CEO kind of a role, add a much better cost and and if we had to bring in an external CEO. The other you know, this use case that we're seeing for little official lot is the VP has a functional gap. So in the marketing world they're a rand marketer and in order to be a cmo they need to be a full stack performance and brand CMO. or by DIVERSA, they have a performance focus VP and they're missing that brand sensibility. And so if you can find a fractional executive who can compliment and coach not just the the soft skills but the hard skills of that person and develop them into that. Then that's another thing I would look at too, how easy it is to, you know, complement their gaps. So the Pinch Hitter, you know, that's when you're when... |
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...there's a time sensitive it is sensitivity. And so in theory, in the level upper world, we have a little bit of time to work with. One part of the equation I always look at is, and this is this kind of equates to cost. But is disruption that? What's the disruption window look like, right and and what are your kind of escape hatches from that? And that is one thing that always drives me towards that level up strategy, because if you drop in a senior person full on, it's going to be disruptive, I don't care how good they are. Right you're looking at probably six months of storming and forming before everything's starting to norm but a level up is not that disruptive, I think. I don't know if you agree with me, and you can also at let's say three I'm curious actually what you think of from from a timeframe, but like three months in do you know if it's going to work? Maybe four months and you know if it's going to work and then you could say hey, you know, we tried to level up. Now we can bring someone else in. Like have you seen those types of time frames? Yeah, I mean I think the risk of the level up is that they don't actually get build up and then you're in a position where you had a great vp who's not who now thinks that they're CMO and they're not performing at the level of Cmo and you have to have a hard conversation. So it's not without risk. You know, the other risk is maybe you have to VP's who want that CMO role and they're really competing. So I think the when you're doing the level of strategy, you have to really think through can I make this person successful and have some evidence that I can do that, whether it be, you know, you start them with a project like let you know, let's bring in a fractional EXEC and you don't give them the title yet. You say like, let's let's give you this project and see how you do on the project before you actually give them the title. I like that and I've also been surprised. I mean I'm one that kind of enjoys hard conversations, weirdly, but I have been surprised when, when you do need to have that conversation, kind of bring someone back to a role that they were in versus where they thought that they wanted to be. I would say, I don't know if this is my my only my experience, but I'd say the majority of them, as long as they were kind of a quality, you know, employee, they're kind of happier than once they realize that, once they've realized, Oh, this isn't for me it, maybe it's not for me ever, or it's not for me right now, they go back to their old role, or maybe a slightly different role is. There's almost a reinvigoration at that point. I've seen for the most part, Oh really, yeah, I think some people can be scared, you know, they're like, am I going to lose this person? And that can happen, like there's no there's as never a zero risk game, right, but I have seen most, most people kind of rise to the challenge then, once they've realized that they're not fit for something else. Yeah, the other thing I've seen is once they get that title there, then poachable. You know that is yeah, and then you know there's only fifty CMOS. People want you elevate a VP tocm o then and there sim up and then all the headhunters are going to come after them. So it's a dog eat dog worlled out there and it's very dynamic, which is what makes it exciting and fun. That is fun. Are you seeing the amount? I know you said it's probably one in ten exacts that are fit for it, give or take. Are you seeing that General Pool and you see more people lean into this? I am getting a lot of inbound from people who say, I want to do this fractional thing. Can you teach me how to do it? Because, again, I think it is it is a little bit. It is about process and about like honing that process. So I think that there's more more executives out there that would do this if they had confidence in in a process for doing it. Yeah, could be scary just to go out there into the wild west, right, but knowing that there's some sort of a framework that you can plug into and it you won't be freezing in the cold alone, I'm sure helps. Yeah. Well, the other point on that, to that point about in the cold and being alone. Is We take, even though we're doing fractional and introm exact, you exact work. That's what the company knows they need. They need an executive, right. But our approach is always on every single project which done, a team based approach to some extent,... |
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...because no, especially when you're like no executive is going to be perfect on every single dimension, right, but particularly when you have this fractional or fractional or Interrom Lens put on it, it's impossible that somebody's going to have the exact right skill set at the exact right time and be ready for you right and and have free time on their play. And so the team based approach we have in the little fish network, you know, not just executives but a ton of agencies and contractors to help round out the skill set of that fractional person so that they're never alone. And that I hadn't really thought of it in the beginning when I described it, but I think that is part of the special sauce of having an effective fractional exact is having that person with a really wide network. Little Fish brings that network a wide network of support, both in terms of how to structure the projects, but also how to have content, expertise and all the things that you'll need to be effective in that role. That's great. Yeah, I mean because even just individually, each one of those seasoned executives, if they're the type of executive that's going to be good at this, they're going to have a strong network themselves, right, and they're going to have those people that will probably just follow them wherever they go. And then you combine them into one broader team under sweet fish and then you get just a much larger hivemind of support across all of their networks. That would I would imagine that's extremely valuable. Yeah, we're actually, can I put in a plug for this experiment that I'm running? Sure, so, because of what you mentioned, this this network thing, you know, for little fish like our sweet spot is consumer facing businesses that are above thirty million, typically like thirty, two, five, a hundred fifty million in top line. But we're getting a lot of calls from smaller businesses who are saying I need this or I need this, and we're saying, well, it's not a little fish thing, but we think that agencies play a really good stop gap for many companies who need people who've done it, can do it, get it, but in a different kind of engagement. I read a staff the other day that there's like tenzero digital agencies out there and you know better than anyone what percentage of them do you think? You're good? Maybe one person, two percent yeah, yeah, not much more than that. Yeah, probably, probably. And so, you know, a good executive knows how to separate the week from the chaff and has their roster of agencies that they've worked with before and really like them. So with little fish, we have this hypothesis that we can help smaller companies better procure, improve the agency percurement process by pooling our network of executives in terms of what agencies have worked well for them and helping, you know, help them find the right agencies or the best agencies out there. So if there's any companies out there who needed an agency, an agency for anything, whether it be digital marketing or branding or technology, but specifically in the demand jet and marketing space, I would love to see if I can help you improve your agency procurement process. Call it half an hour of your time and that's the experimental running. Can I make the agency procurement process easier for you. Love it and start off with some speed dating. But yeah, it's some of my favorite moments are when so when of my network they want something, I we can't do it and but we have someone in else in our network and we can connect them and it's the corporate, you know, match making the process and I love it because you're helping two of your friends at that point. So it's great. Yeah, I mean, since leaving Walmart I've been very heart and to meet amazing people who have been, you know, small business owners, medium business owners, who have been just such such great connectors. Jonathan Smith, for example, who connected us, has made, you know, makes an introduction for me a week. Thank you, Jonathan. So yeah, I love this. You know, this little fish extended network. It seems I've been really fortunate to be great people who really been supportive of the journey. Well, that's great. I look forward to the bigger and better things from little fish. Is Very exciting. So I've always... |
| 00:28:01 - 00:34:00 |
...love to end on what is the best device that you've ever received in worker life? Well, I'll tell you a quick day of time for a quick anecdote, which gets to the advice okay. So when I was at business school, I was at Columbia, the CMO, then CMO of craft came in. She was talking about somebody asked you the questions, like aircraft. There's so many great marketers, like why did you get Cem oh? And she said, well, I was, you know, I was a regular little marketer like everyone else, and one day somebody fired our boss and so everybody was looking around. We're like what do we do, like we don't know what to do, and I made this is what she said. I made the decision that doing something was better than doing nothing. So I just started putting things into motion and then all the sudden people were looking to me and to say what should I do, and then the new boss came in. They came in, they looked at me, they said everyone's looking at me. Ask you like in terms of what to do, and they made me the boss. So I think the advice would be, you know, there's never a perfect thing to do, but always put just start, start doing the best thing you know how to do at that moment, what was and and everything will fall into place and everyone will think you're an expert and know exactly what you're doing. Exactly well. Great Ireland. Thank you so much for joining me. I love this. Thanks, George. Great to talk to you. Technology should serve vision, not set it. At intevity we design clear blueprints for organizational readiness and digital transformation that allow companies to chart new past. Then we drive the implementation of those plans with our client partners in service of growth. Find out more at www that intevitycom you've been listening to see sweet blueprint. If you like what you've heard, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you get your podcast to make sure you never miss a new episode. And while you're there, we'd love it if you could leave a rating. Just give us however many stars you think you deserved. Until next time. |
