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Today's guest saws the big, hard, impactful problems. He's written a book on it called Regulatory Hacking, which is a guide on how you can get involved in solve problems within regulated environments. I think the models within there are fantastic, not just for regulated environments but really anywhere. He's launched a company called seventeen seventy six that is all about breaking down the borders of innovation and he now leads helm as the CEO, where they're building a platform to drive more civic engagement and impact. Please welcome Evan Burfield. You're listening to see sweet blueprint, the show for sea sweet leaders. Here we discussed nobs, approaches to organizational readiness and digital transformation. Let's start the show. Evan, thanks so much for being here. Well, it's my pleasure. So you're a very busy man. Lots of different companies that you've started, but you know book that you've written. I love to start with your book, Regulatory Hacking, because I've read it recently and it was written in two thousand and eighteen and I'm curious when the pandemic hit, if you if you thought about rereleasing it with the tagline of I told you. So you know the temptation was there. But you know what's actually been great, honestly, as I get, probably every week an email from, you know, some entrepreneurs somewhere in the world who's, you know, read the book and is putting the ideas into practice, asking for advice and guidance and the the sort of creativity and the kind of potential impact of the different ideas that people are working on and if the book helped them in any way or inspired them anyway or gave them a better playbook like that's that's deeply fulfilling from my standpoint. What let the fire under you to write that book, Cos the inspiration, you know, the I had this incredibly just incredible opportunity when I was, you know, building and running seventeen seventy six with with my cofounder Donna, to just get to get to work with these incredible entrepreneurs and in the focus of seventeen seventy six really was on what I would now call kind of regulatory kackey startups, but it was it was startups who were, you know, attempting to... |
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...apply the kind of classic Silicon Valley Startup playbook to these really narrowly hard public interest problems. You know, how do we make our schools more effective in educating all children? How do we how do we improve public health and how do we improve personalized medicine? How do we make government more responsive and help citizens to engage more in their communities? You know, all of these sort of any climate change right, like really difficult not only problems and and over time. But we started to figure out is that, you know, there was this incredible wealth of material available out there online. Right, you could go read the essays of Paul Graham, you could go get, you know, all these incredible materials from why see your five hundred startups or first round capital, all this great stuff. You know about how you build startups in a regular context. Right, I want to build a new APP to a to date, or I want to build a way to kind of get food delivered to me, whatever it is. But that when you try to apply that playbook to these really hard, narrowly public interest problems, you get often broke down because you had to navigate and deal with government, right, either because government was setting the rules of the game and and driving incentives that you had to in some way change the rules or or create new incentives or because, in some cases literally, government was your your customer are you had to get to figure out a cell the government and the silicon valleey playbook actually often gives you wrong ideas about how to do that, and so the book kind of came from what I learned, really from from these incredible entrepreneurs and I tried to kind of craft it together into, you know, a real a real guide and and some kind of generic principles that you could apply to these problems. They're great. I especially love the concept of the power map and I think that's also a great example where it doesn't have to just apply to a regulatory environment. And you know, I think stepping back from just your ideal persona and your user personas and really like figuring out the whole flow of... |
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...power and influences is huge. I'd love you to expand a little bit on power maps. Yeah, so there's a tendency, I think, and I when I use the phrase for a Silicon Valley, I don't literally mean, you know, like a couple of counties south of San Francisco, the area. I mean more of kind of a mindset or an attitude. Right of a network of people who tweeted each other a lot, right right between VC's in a certain set of founders and a large Echo Chamber and in very ob densities. Yeah, there's there's often a sort of mindset still to this day, right even even after everything been to over the last, you know, two years, and there's often a mindset that anything that imposes any constraint on, you know, an entrepreneurs ability to kind of build some new thing is bad. Right, and I always refer to it as a certain and Randian, except they never grew and evolved from being fifteen and reading and rand and, you know, like kind of mindset right where it's sort of this this this very simplistic libertarianism, you know, whereas you know, that's just not reality. And that mindset often goes, oh my God, insiders are are stacking the game against me, and you go well, you know, yeah, to some extent maybe, and there is absolutely regulatory capture and there's rent seeking and there's lots of bad behavior that goes on, but the basic premise that, you know, we live in a democracy and and in a healthy, well functioning democracy, and I'd be the first to say we're not always there in America, but that's that's the aspiration, right, in a healthy, well functioning democracy, you know, policy makers are supposed to listen to various takeholders in groups and craft rules that make sure that markets operate in the public interest. And that's how it's supposed to work. And as a business, or as in as a collection of businesses, as citizens, as collections of citizens, we have a right to assemble and communicate and to petition government... |
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...and communicate to them what it is that we need. And you know, inevitably, when when I was advising startups at one, seventeen, seventy six or even now, you know, in our venture portfolio or companies have invested in as an angel, they almost always start from a place of not remotely understanding the game that they're playing. MMM, and that's not a bad thing, right. They're often coming at these industries as outsiders with really cool, big, new disruptive ideas, and that's great. But like any one of these industries, healthcare, education, transportation, anything involving energy or climate change, government services, right, these are these are veryousphisticated markets. There are people who are currently very involved in setting the rules, and some of those people really are operating earnestly in the public interest, even if you might disagree with them. Some are not, some are pursuing their own private special interest right. That's the game. If you don't understand that game, if you don't understand what the chess board looks like, if you don't understand who the players are and what their interests are and what their capabilities are, you are at a massive disadvantage. And no amount of you know, but, but I I have a better idea, or but if you just do this, everything will be great. Is going to get you there, and that's that's the basic premace of the power map, right. You you have to understand and the game you're playing and where the chess pieces lie and what those chess pieces Canon can't do. That makes a lot of sense and I feel like there's there's a very natural pattern where people just tend to steer clear of it, right. It's so if you're trying to do something innovative or disruptive and you keep hitting these these roadblocks, you just steer clear of it, you go a different direction, right, and so then these hard problems never really get solved. You know, I think, I think there's been I would say five. Six years ago, you were still six. Seven years ago, you were still at a place where people just steer clear. I remember or or or or thought they were steering clear right. They didn't want to operate vent VC's, didn't want to fund startups. They were operating in markets where they were sort of gatekeepers and we're politics would get in the way. |
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And I remember this. I think I cite this in the book, but this really it's still six in my head. I was down at South by southwest and and I was at this sort of private vc dinner and I'm sitting next to you know, is a New York vc, but a pretty prominent New York vc, and I was kind of explaining a lot of the premise of around one thousand, seve hundred and seventy six, where we help start ups who are trying to solve these big public interest challenges and help them navigate government. Then he goes, oh, we would never, we would never invest in a startup that has regulatory risk. I kind of look at them. I'm like really, he's like yeah, which is we just want to do with. I we don't deal with gatekeepers. We want we watch startups that can, you know, win on the merits. And then he pauses it. He goes, well, we did invest in this one startup that's sending drones flying through cities to do light our scans of everything in the city for targeting outdoor advertising more effectively. And I'm kind of looking at him. He goes, well, I guess there might be some regulatory risk in that one and I'm like, I'm meaning, yeah, but there was still this mindset that you tried to avoid regultary risk. And then I think you went through a wave where, you know, Uber was incredibly successful early on, right in kind of going after this this really classic rent seeing regulatory capture behavior in all these cities around the world. You know, and again I have this really poignant memory of having a conversation with in in Silicon Valley with this another different, very prominent VC, and I was once again explaining the premise what we do and it goes, Oh, why do you have to do any of that? You know, Uber has demonstrated that if you just stack up enough capital you can just roll government and I was like MMM, and and literally was going through my head at the time was you're assuming that the uber, that the the Uber Story is over. Right, you're assuming that, but it just doesn't take a while for government to kind of catch up to what's happening here. But even so, you know, Uber was such a and I talked about this a lot in the book, Uber was such an incredibly unique outlier, right, in terms of the particular industry they were... |
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...in, the dynamics in that what they were bringing to it, that just don't apply. Right, it doesn't apply. It didn't apply if you were twenty three in me and you were just going to decide that the FDA shouldn't have a say in in offering home DNA testing, right, which didn't. Didn't end well. Almost almost killed twenty three and me, right, and they had to take a major step back and understand their power map and build relationships and and and it took them a three four year arc before they could actually start offering, you know, health advice based on their home DNA tests. Right. They had to kind of you know, feed off the land for a long time, off of just doing sort of ancestry and that all of this kind of stuff, because they didn't they didn't understand that the FDA is a very, very different beast than say, thousands of local taxi cab commissions and cities all around the world. Right. Or an extreme version would be like a there nos, hmm. Right, like eventually, fake it till you make it, when it involves blood testing that people are relying upon to make life or death decisions, is going to end tremendously badly. Right. You you you really need to be on your game if you're doing that stuff. Yeah, because it's, you know, when you know the trials going on now and when you see everything that happened in their playbook. Yeah, I've been in software a long time. It's pretty much what I've seen every software vendor do. Right, it's it's it was nothing new to me whatsoever. But when it's applied to when when lives are on the line, it's a it's a big problem. I think what I love an addition to, you know, your whole focus on truly understanding it and the power map, and then also it can be influenced. Right, it's it serves people and you can navigate it, but also your concept of you know, it doesn't this work doesn't have to just live in the valley. It can, it can live closer to where the problem is, where the frontline workers are, and I had an Aha moment when I was reading your book because I always, I'm always taught my clients. We need to do more Dan the life of the users. Right, we need to do more site visits. But when I thought about regulatory environments, there's multi there's usually multigenerational families that... |
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...live that work and in those in those regulatory environments. And not just that, but community is built out around a lot of like aviation or petroleum in and I like, Geez, how the hell do you do a day in the life for an entire community of multiple generations of expertise? So, you know, why not move it there? And I love to hear you know, some of your stories around, you know, moving the work to where the problem is and really embracing that culture. Well, yes, the most extreme version of that for me, you know, which has been a tremendous success story, certainly as investors in the one thousand seve hundred seventy six venture fund, is, you know, we were the very first checks into a startup in east Africa that was transforming and has transformed, frankly, food logistics supply chain, food supply in Insubstn Africa, predominantly so far east Africa, but kind of expanding across the continent. Like when we invested in them, they had not yet built any technology and they were delivering bananas to Mama and Bogus, two street vendors, in Tuck tucks from a one shipping contator they had set up in one estate, basically a neighborhood in Nairobi. But they laid out the depth of knowledge and understanding they had about how massive the markets for fresh routs and vegetables and fast moving a tumor goods and subsitur in Africa was, how deeply inefficient and broken that market was, exactly where the leverage points were in order to transform that market. You know what needed to happen in in and I remember, you know, talking these entrepreneurs to to grant brook and to Peter Nedojo and was just was just blown away and you know every single question I asked. But how do you deal with that? How do you do it that? They had this incredibly vivid story and they're like, well, we were just out, you know, negotiating with the families... |
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...that sell pineapples in this region of Kenya or we were just dealing with, you know, police officials in this region who were trying to do bribes on this access to this market. Or we were just dealing with and we end up investing in them before they ever built in a technology, because the the the understanding of the problem and how messy and and frankly, dirty and hard this problem was was just blows away, you know. And they've gone on now to raise sixty, seventy million dollars at, you know, increasingly impressive valuations from people like Goldman Sachs and then others, and a really transformed that market right like there's there's no amount of Washington, DC or Silicon Valley do goodeurism that could ever possibly replicate the on the ground knowledge that you have. And this is like a eight hundred billion dollar market, right, like massive mar take that extreme version. You can apply it to any one of these industries, right. It's if you want to apply the block chain to, I don't know, the petroleum industry, or if you have an idea for getting to net zero on extraction of carbon fuels, you know quickly, whatever you're you're probably going to going to go be a member of capital factory in Texas and in particular in Houston. Right. It's just going to be hard, you know, sitting in New York or or the bay area, to really understand how you apply that concept if you really want to do interesting transformative things in, you know, precision agriculture and producing healthier food at lower carbon impact or lower water consumption. Right, like probably have a lot of benefits being a startup in in Idaho and in Boise, which has a great vibrant startup ecosystem. Right. And I think that element of as as we sort of as we broaden our imagination on the sectors that need to be transformed and we maybe get a little bit more real about where the really big problems in our society lie that we need to be applying entrepreneurship and capital and technology to go solve, you start to con really obvious that you know, there's a... |
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...lot more interesting places that you should be building these companies or that you can access and tap into. To your point, in many cases, multigenerational depth of knowledge and insight and expertise and and regulatory knowledge is a big part of that. Yeah, yeah, when you think about that vast depth of knowledge, it almost feels silly talking about a day in the life, right, and they hiring a s me and doing a few days in the life is not going to even make a dent in that. That much knowledge that's out there. You know, look, I always I always say of all the sectors that I've invested into or that we supportive startups, had a seen seventy six like education is always the hardest to to sort of get a read on, and the reason it is is because every one of us got educated somehow and many of us went through the public school system and got educated. And if you're an entrepreneur or a technologist, you probably had a somewhat negative experience going through traditional education, right, you do. You tend to have a kind of disruptive, authoritary in mindset of that tends to cause friction in institutional settings. Right. So, so the incredibly large number of entrepreneurs who went who go? I went to school. Therefore I'm an expert and how to transform education. There's there's very, very, very needed changes that he'd happen to improve the quality of public education. Right, absolutely, and I would argue there's almost, you know, no problem. That's that's more important to the long term health of our society than getting that right. Totally agree. But but like it's not because the people in there aren't pretty smart and don't care. Right, you're not going to rock up going. I went to school, so I have a transfer, bitive idea. or or maybe you you do have a transfer, a bit of idea because you went to school, but you got to go to school all over again. You got to really, really go understand what is it actually like to be a teacher? What does it like to be a school administrator? Like, why do school districts make the decisions that they do? Right, like, what is it... |
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...like to be a parent? How, like, actually, how do you apply your idea to actually make it successful and to prove outcomes right and actually be able to measure that you are in fact improving outcomes for children education, you know, and that's a that's a really, really, really high bar for the sort of Hay which a school. I have a cool idea. I'm going to go started in tech start up. Yeah, and and you're so true that the folks that are in there, they do have great ideas, and I do want to change you. We've run plenty of workshops in these types of regulated environments and it's it can be a little bit of a bummer because you come up with so many great ideas and for each idea there's, you know, laundry list of all the reasons why, oh, that's right, we can't do that because of this, this and this, and then I find that they just, you know, sometimes stop there because they've been beaten down so many years. Like I guess we won't be able to do any of these ideas well. But back to the point. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but you need to bring a level of education. You got to understand your power map, you got to understand the rules, understand leverage points and you have to recognize that, like no amount of magical wish fulfillment will wake will make humans other than what they are. Right, you hear in Ed Tech is an extreme version. Well, teachers should do this, or parents should do this, or administrators should do this. Why should they do it? Well, because if they did it, my idea would be really easy or my idea could be so transformative. The trick is, you know, teachers are are are humans like anybody else. Right, they they work hard, they're exhausted, they're stressed out. They have way too many things on their plate right they want to go home and spend time with like at the end of the day. The relevant question is, have you actually gone and done the work? Have you done the day in the life? Do you really really understand them, to understand what teachers in fact will do? MMM, not what you think they should do. Same thing with school district same thing administrators. And in some cases the answer is, will teachers not going to do that because there's this rule? Well, can you change the rule? What would be required to change the rule? Right? Why is the rule they're in the first place? How do you... |
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...you know, how do you actually evolve the system to produce better outcomes and, in some cases, introduce new models or new technology to help bake that happen? Yeah, if more people realize that everyone won't do things exactly the way they expect it and see the view the world exactly the way they see it, I'd be a much better place to exist in. And maybe that's a good segue into you know, I'd love to hear a little bit about what you're doing at helm and and because you are looking, you know, how can we engage and evolve and leverage civic engagement, right. Yeah, I mean you can take a very big through line through a lot of the work that I've done for the last ten, twelve years and you know, this sort of concept of being civic mind, that of civic participation. Right, if you're an entrepreneur and you care about the world, about your country, you care about people, like there's there's really big problems you need to go solve. You know, if you want to go solve those problems, and a lot of cases you're going to have to figure out how to kind of rally people to come support you. You know. Well, Uber probably took it way too far, like you do. Want to give them credit for the beauty of what they figured out early on, which was, oh, I can take an early adopter customer set and I can turn them into a grassroots army to help drive policy changes in in cities, right like that was a really, really fascinating insight and you know, people like broadly tusks, who were advising, you know, Travis Clinic on the early days, like so much credit for kind of blending together that sort of silicon valley model with a real insights of politics and grass roots and all that stuff. So if I've generally been around that. But you know, it's hard. It's hard to not look at the world right now and go, you know, our democracy is not a healthy place and you know, it's very I think it's very easy to kind of come up with simplistic it's this side's falter, it's that side fault, and certainly I have a perspective on, you know, things that are happening that are particularly damaging to our democracy. But you know, what we're very, very focused on through helm is trying to kind of put aside sort of ideology and, to the extent that we can,... |
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...you know, partisanship and really focus it on the question of what's actually driving a more equable future in the long term and how do we help to get more people in their communities, particularly local communities, engaged in doing the work to drive those things that lead to a more equable future in the long term. And you know, for me, given where I'm at, yeah, I got a four yearold the six year old. It's it's hard for me to think of any problem more important to kind of tackle than making sure that they inherit not just a still functioning democracy but in fact a much healthier one than you know they maybe I inherit it, and I think a lot of that has to do with with getting people re engaged in in democracy and in politics in a much healthier way, and I think a lot of that is is in local communities. That so we do a lot of that work at home. It's both tools, it's data, it's research, so it's a lot of kind of what's really working to say, Hey, we want to give everybody organizing superpowers and we think that work should start first and foremost around the issues that kind of impact your day to day life, and most of those are local issues. I love the through line. Yeah, I mean because with the more engagement, the more understanding and the more empathy and the more kind of just, you know, taking responsibility for what it is that we're doing and what it is that we're creating. So I think, you know, it's that same idea of understanding your power map, engaging in it and just hacking these problems at a local Le them and makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's it's funny you look at these kind of through lines that maybe you don't understand until they all come together in your head. But, like you know, at Helm we talk a lot about the civic graph. Right, we really really want to understand and model out how influence flows, you know, between and among, you know, the two hundred and forty million eligible voters that make up are our big beautiful, messy, crazy democracy. And you know, some of those, some of the nodes on that graph, right, are more impactful. Right, some people can literally... |
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...make a vote in a city council meeting or a state legislature that can change policy and you know, some people have close influential relationships with those people. Right. That that that that civic graph is not not untextured, right, in terms of who has relatively more power and who has relatively more influence over that. Well, actually, it a certain sense, that's just creating the power map right, like for everyone, and making it a whole lot easier for for lots of different groups, entrepreneurs, but also social entrepreneurs, who are trying to drive advocacy and organize people around issues and around policy changes, to kind of do that work quicker and more effectively and, you know, be able to sort of engage people, you know, in a more in a more authentic and direct way. I often one thing we talk a lot about it helm, is this idea that sort of the the user experience of democracy isn't particularly good right now. HMM. Right. And often times even when you you do choose to engage as an individual citizen of the political process, you often feel like you must get sort of punished for it. Right, like they can the simplest way, like even when there's a politician that I'm inspired by, that I want to support and I want to go give them ten bucks or twenty five bucks or a fifty monthly recurring donation or whatever it is, it's like I've disincentivized to do that because I know that the second I do it, I am going to get spammed every single day for the next six months by two hundred and fifty politicians and causes and issues that I don't care about and I didn't want to support. Right, like really simple things like that like it. It almost trains us to have a really high bar. Right we're doing a lot of user research around sort of supervolunteers and local community organizers and one of the the key insights that was coming back is that you know, even if they're the person who knows their neighborhood the best right. They're the super organizer for the neighborhood. They know that they don't know all of their neighborhood or neywhere close to it, but they're hesitant to engage too much with people they don't already know because they don't want to get screamed at and they want to get yelled at and they don't want to have these like really nasty fraud conversations. You know, we think there's a... |
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...lot that we can do with research and data and technology to create a better user experience and to make democracy more rewarding and fulfilling and make organized in our communities were rewarding and fulfilling. Such that's a lot of the work that I'm doing right now, but I think it does connect back to a lot of the sort of regulatory hacking work. And you know, it's startups that are operating the public and just sort of this interesting subset of just broadly social entrepreneurship and how do we build a better world, a more equal world? Yeah, yeah, and you know, people were probably ask themselves, is it worth it if I engage? And it's funny that you said the Ux of democracy, because I think back to the early days of Ux where we had that that era where you had to justify why you would invest in user experience. Like I remember we used to have to like justify all, you'll save this number of clicks or you'll have, you know, this this less churn or this less training. Is it worth it to focus on the UX and and maybe that's the stage that we're in as a culture, as you know, is it what you know? We need to explain why it's worth it to engage in improving that user experience to get that engagement. I mean, you know, there's a number of things that that are sort of true all at the same time, a lot of which are in conflict with each other. Right we have the highest turnout election in a hundred years, in two thousand and twenty. Well, that's that's encouraging a certain direction. You could look around, you could look around the world right now and like it would it would be hard, if you're paying attention at all, not to recognize that there are some really, really profound challenges right in in public health, in in in climate change, right like really profound challenges that that you cannot solve effectively. I would would argue without sort of democratic engagement in a healthy public sector. It's also true that people are just exhausted and burned out from politics right now. HMM. Right, and and this sort of a lot of that, I think, comes back to this sense of like people know it's important, they are engaging, but the experience is not a pleasant or... |
| 00:28:00 - 00:30:03 |
...enjoyable or often directly rewarding one. And so you sort of keep hitting the urgency button and you keep hitting the you know, this is the most critical thing ever if you don't do this tomorrow, Button, but you hit that over and over and over again, and and you're also just burning people out and and sort of undermining a healthy democracy in the long term. And those are those are hard problems and really important problems and you know, I'm just you know, it's a really great opportunity to get to play a role right now in trying to build something better. Well, you've inspired me as an entrepreneur and now, at the four year old daughter, I want to solve the important problem. So so thank you for the message and thank you for your time. But something I'd love to finish on is what is the best advice you've ever received? M You know, I took a somewhat nontraditional path. So I built my first startup when I was nineteen, raised my first fundure capital when I was nighteen and, you know, eventually left that company when I was about twenty four. And you know, we went through thecom boom, we throughcom bust, got the company stabilized and then actually got fired by my board, which is deliciously that's run lesson to twenty four. UN as always, almost all of the great lessons in life were ones that were very humbling at the time. But you know, and I was talking to one of my really close mentors and I was like yeah, I what do I want to do next, like do I want to go? I don't really to go back to school, like I don't have a college degree, but what am I gonna do? And to sit in some Freshman Lecture Hall like I've Just I've just had this incredible, incredible experience and learn all these things. My Mentor, got named Fred Bowler, was like, well, you think about you know, oxfor to Cambridge. That's totally different model. It's not traditional lecture halls, it's, you know, reading books and debating and you be you'd love that. Then I was like yeah, yeah, I just don't know, do I really want to go? And I applied, I got in and I was still like, I don't really want to go, and he goes. You know, in your you're exceptionally good at at convincing people that you're right here at the right layer twenty four, but if you really want to go do great things in the world, you're going to need to be right more often, and that actually requires reason and logic... |
| 00:30:03 - 00:31:59 |
...and study and doing your homework. And that was one of those things that at first almost had a like a compliment and then I was like, oh, that hurt, but it's it's been true over and over again and I think it's back to sort of the point you were talking about, with with power maps and a day in the life and doing your research. Like you know, almost all of the worthwhile problems to solve are hard problems. HMM, right, they're they're not going to, you know, just get solved because because you're clever and you have a vision and you're raise some capital. Right, they really really require a level of humility, a level of growth mindset, doing your homework, digging in, really understanding what makes these markets and the people within them tick and where you can actually add value in where the leverage points are to to do something really important impactful, and that's something I I often try to impart to, you know, my team. Get Helm Right, the more important it is, the harder it is, the more you got to do your homework, but also to a lot of other entrepreneurs who I get a chance to invest in or advise. That's great advice. You got to be right more often, and being right as not easy and requires a lot of work. You got to go to school. You gotta go to school. Well, Evan, thank you so much for being here. This was great. Appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thanks, Lou Ridge. Technology should serve vision, not set it. At intevity we design clear blueprints for organizational readiness and digital transformation that allow companies to chart new past. Then we drive the implementation of those plans with our client partners in service of growth. Find out more at wwwe that intevitycom. You've been listening to see sweet blueprint. If you like what you've heard, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you get your podcast to make sure you never miss a new episode. And why you're there we'd love it if you could leave a rating. Just give us however many starshos think you deserve. Until next time. |
