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Today's guest has deep experience in the BBSs space, both at a start up VC level also at the enterprise level. He's a CEO and founder of Jeff Kushmerek consultant group, where they help startups with their post sale customer journey, and he also has a podcast called getting services done, where he talks about all the stories of the in the trenches of running professional services organizations within the SASS organizations. So please welcome Jeff Coush Mary. You're listening to see sweet blueprint, the show for sea sweet leaders. Here we discussed nobs, approaches to organizational readiness and digital transformation. Let's start the show. Hey, Jeff, thanks for being there. Good. I'm glad I was able to put that Coffee Cup down while you were perfect time. Perfect time. So we were talking about this. You know, we've both been in professional services for what seems like forever. We were joking about, you know, what's new with the phrase digital transformation to what we were doing, you know, over twenty years ago, and I was curious. You know what do you see? What was digital transformation before it was called digital digital transformation? What's different from then versus now? Yeah, we haven't, and I think you know why is that my first digital transformation was, I'm going to date myself, one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven, and I was actually it's a really cool digital transformation story, where I was working at a law firm that was representing very large brands that everyone here knows that we're constantly getting sued about the same things, and so back in the old days, the legal team, like the paralegals, will go around and lawyers would tag stuff with these little flags and you'd go photocopy them and you'd send off just boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff to people, and so, you know. So we did the streamlining thing where all these documents that were always being used in these court cases we're scanned in. They have these numbers there in a database and you know when when this car company is getting sued about this catalytic converter, it is time to send out this collection of documents and send them out and and you know, the reason why I really like that story is... |
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...because it encapsulates how I think about working on digital transformations these days, which is following a job's to be done framework. Right, like we were talking about a job that's being done, that was going over and over again doing the same thing and causing a lot of expensive billable hours. But it's very clear what needs to happen and a lot of people, when they think about these big digital transformation product projects, they might approach it for the wrong reason, like, oh, we need to rip and replace that software, we need to do x, we need to do why? And I think people are getting a lot smarter, at least what I've been exposed to over the last couple of years, about what are the jobs the users are trying to do right and if you can approach things from there, especially in the in sort of the agile frameworks and mindsets that have come about and got a lot more popular over the last few years, you realize like, let's work on the most important things first and then go from there and then, you know, fold in all the fun architecture work and things like that. But it's still, I feel, too broad of a term, but it's enough of a term that that people understand what you're doing. But I can talk. I can see five projects I did over the last five years. They were all digital transformations and you would maybe they're just dramatically different. Right where you were talking going from on premise software to being in the cloud. You're talking about, you know, going from paper to digitally. You know, all these different scenarios. So I think it is very important to frame that. Somebody else, you know, what would be a dramatic digital transformation for some people? Is it really that much phrase somebody else? You know, depends on the level of tech, the level of maturity of the company. You know, you could be a two hundred year old insurance company and you're still doing everything on paper, and that's a dramatic digital transformation that needs to happen to keep up with your client base, because they're like this is ridiculous and think that's I'm going to just realize I going to go down a long path... |
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...of white people need to work on these things. Well, I'll stop from there and hopefully you got something tangible out of that. Yeah, yeah, I love the jobs to be done framework because at the end of the days, like this job has to be accomplished. Can you make this better? Can you can you change the way that this job is being accomplished? Are there unmet needs that you can now meet? You know, and it's as technology, part of that, for sure, right, but there's all these other things and is is funny getting back to that. You know, is this digital transformation, like we're mainframes and terminals? Yeah, digital transformation. If you think about it, just for people that weren't part of this, if you were doing a swap out, you're going from one thing to the next, the first thing you would do would be a massive amount of business analysis where you get together a grid of features and then you just basically have to map up and make sure you're getting all those features. And nobody ever went in and said do you need to do this, you need to the I was like no, everybody's gonna Complain if they can't do the exact same thing right. And I always talked about the big green button, which was when we were building some custom software for some people and they were getting off of another piece of custom software and they were like we need the big green button here, and it was literally a green button and it was like well, what you know, and we're not going to sign off on this project until the green buttons there. I'm like, well, what is it the Green Button doing? Like Oh, well, now all enables us to get the current report and exported to excel and like, okay, so you need export to excel functionality so that you can do what they're like, oh, so that we can run our formulas on it right, and so you start, you know, as you know, and the consultant thing. Just ask five questions and you'll eventually get to the answer. And instead, you know, I remember back in the old days, would be like, let's go build that green button, let's scope it out, let's get this change order going and make sure that we get that big green button there, and you just wind up bolting on and building lots of unneeded software that has to get maintained over the time. Enough about the green button. Accomplish here. I know you stare at the scheme for twenty hours a day, but here's this new solution. You're going to take it and you're gonna like it, right, rather than really focusing on that experience. On that note, look how... |
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...long it took to replace airline technology from the green screens. And it wasn't because of ease of use. who was for speed, of having all those systems connected and everything, and everyone's like you. You go to the airport and even in like two thousand and ten maybe, and you, like I can't believe you guys, would use in green screens and dot Matrix and they're like, bring us something faster and we'll do it. But like, you know, can you? Can you go faster than what we're currently using right now? And it's good questions. So you get the UI. It starts making things slower and you know, the end of the day, what's the job to be done? Like we're really and we're I'm at a ticket gate and you're trying to find out once the next available plan and get you on that thing as fast as possible and in seconds and minutes count. So yeah, I think the other changes I've seen over time is I think early days it seemed like it was more do or die on your technology decisions. You know which one are we going to choose and you go through a lengthy evaluation, whereas now it's like pick one off, whichever one you want to pick, to pick it and let's move forward. You're right, there was like what I was like Ib am in Microsoft and then you'll like or whatever I mean as an example, but there weren't too many you know systems out there and it was a huge investment before saps right, or in this current landscape, where you had to get servers set up and you had to have it set up the servers and you had to, you know, go through all that stuff and everything in pick decide you could do the Swat analysis on the software everything. Where we're right now, it's like, okay, we'll try this, but you know, you know, as long as this is a beer connection, we can swap in and swap out, you know, a piece of software if we need to or something like that. Or you know now that the API, so many companies are API center of an API first base. You can, you can, you can do a better evaluation and you can say, Hey, this isn't working for us, we need to bring something else in, and it's not going to be a multimillion dollar project to do that. Yeah, what I love about your experiences is you've you've led professional services within so many different SASS companies, and what I find interesting about that's because I'm, I've always been on the outside of a software company. When you're in the inside running professional services, I feel like you're always... |
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...in the position of wherever the promise that was made of what the software supposed to do versus the client expectations. Like that's that's what you need to now fill that gap and I'm curious about that experience there. And can I swear in this podcast? I'm trying to like, what's it? The BASLO? You can, we'll just have to flag it. It'll be have the explicit rating like a Dr Am. Now I went to that. Yeah, I will get more interest. So I do have. So it's a dramatically different thing. I've done both. You know, I did about four or five years of before I move into what I'm doing now, where was building custom stuff, bespoke software, where you weren't tied to a software or SASS company, and the difference is dramatic. My essential motto for that is don't f for the AAR right. And so what does that mean? That means that somebody made a purchase decision to take your software on and then they said okay. Now, typically when you're selling into side, sorry, inside the enterprise, you need integration work. Definitely. You know in if you're if you're working for a really important zoff or a really valuable company, the you know that you're doing really well as a company. If suddenly you're integrating with other companies at an enterprise level, and so you're bringing an API as, you're using connectors, you're doing all of this things and you're working on, you know, critical systems and things like that. So what I saw was that if you had project team members that were of the just very consultant mindset but not in the SASS company mindset, there's that push back and we got to write change orders and that's not exactly what we did and that's not the scope that we signed up for and everything where. Sorry, just think of all these little quotes, but like, at the end of the day, they're like, Hey, we want to use your crappy software and and you need to be able to integrate to do it and we don't want you to hear... |
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...you push back or else we're not going to renew. And you have to find that line that's in between that right. It's like, okay, we're good, we know that this is going to be valuable for you, but like, you know, to gant chart them to death and to be impeded them to death because you know they were two for busy and they didn't get the files over to you can't be like that's it. It's a it's a one week day for day change. And, by the ways, to change order here like that just does not work. I mean. But you can't be subservient and just let them walk all over you. So it's a very, you know, flexible but rigid, like it's just malleable situation where you need to be able to say this is how it goes and everything. And I to be honest, this is still a lot of what I do for my own consulting now, because people were like how do we do this? And and it's the scoping. It's what you do is against you scope up front, you bring in your services team and you you know. But because you're not building custom stuff, you will you get pretty good pattern recognition on the types of things to look for which, to be frank, it's always about crappy data, but just getting it. But it's a it's but you sort of like, okay, what's not overwhelm them with stuff, but let's bring up the top five problems that always come up on any enterprise integration in go from there and, you know, get get a very friendly architect on the phone and just have them walk through these types of questions. Hey, you know can send over data, sample here we're trying to do this. Do you have got permissions around x? Do you? You know those types of things? You have read, write and all those types of questions, and then suddenly you can make it less painful. So the sales team does not mind bringing in services into the into the presales and then you're able to set up a contract that allows you to start the engagement off right. You don't, they don't feel like you're going to be change ordering them, because I tell you what happens if you don't do this. In the problem I always get called in to solve is that the IT'S A it's a smaller software company. They signed everything up, you know, CEO, so don't worry about it, we'll take care of with professional services. And the professional services... |
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...comes in and they're like that's not a twomonth job, that's a six month job and we're gonna have to change order like Fiftyzero or something like that. Oh Crap, Oh crap. Well, but in there in the customers like, too bad, I already asked for my budget for your crappy software and we're not getting anymore. So you kind of have to figure out how to make it happen and then, and that happens. I've been Brian. That happens. They'll have ten existing customers that are going through that and what should have been a four month engagement are turning into ten months and then suddenly they're not collecting any MRR or are are from these customers in the finance teams wondering why can't they send invoices, and it's a huge problem. So, so that's the big difference between the you know, hey, we're going to come in for a six weeek discovery, scope it out and then start building up a nice little framework for us to start this nice, you know, multimonth, multiyear engagement, versus working for a SASS company and trying to do Minimum Bible possible so they can start getting their time to value using your software so you can renew it. But, Jeff, I'm paying two million dollars a year and licensing fees. Can you just make my day to work? Shouldn't it just all work right away? Yeah, that's that's the rub right there, and that's where you have to have these conversations internal your software company to say, you know, do you want to carve that out of the software feed. You want to do x, do you want to do why? Or Hey, product team, make it easier to integrate build. You know, we're seeing that we're having to do the same transformation of data. So maybe you could build an Etla er in there and then it's very smooth and you don't even need professional services. So people can sign up faster and we can recognize, rightly faster, which is always might go to like fixed product, but get it. You know, if it's one off bespoke, it's like then you tell them like, and I've had I've had those conversations with the customers and they're like, Whoa, wait, you telling me we're the only customer like that, and where you're basically saying like yeah, you're the crazy one, right, you're the one that you're the one who's stuff is... |
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...so bad that it's in the situation you and you have to be able to have those conversations in a way where it's like, listen, yeah, you can clean your data, or we can clean your dat if that's the situation, or you can build a connector we can build a connector you know, or whatever the problem said has to be and if it happens three, four, five times and suddenly it you know, that's when you start bringing into the product. Is Like Hey, by the way, everybody's using sales force. Maybe we need a sales force adapter or something like that. Yeah, it's not us, it's you. And what I found too, there's all these ebbs and swells, where as over the years, as organizations go through the various stages of transformation, which is, you know, first there's a reliance on professional services firms and then there's a Oh, let's bring a lot of this in house. You know, there's been various areas where major software vendors they're really pushing their own professional services firms versus leveraging other partners. And you know, you and I have been on different side, because I can tell you we've been and we've been called in many times to like because when they've gotten annoyed with the professional services at the software vendor. Right, but being on different angles, I wonder if there's some stories from the field, you know, chip tips and tricks on how these organizations can better leverage professional services firms or things not to do in leveraging. Well, you know, we did this right like, you know, with you when I was at break cove, where it was like, you know, we can't have a huge team. So, just for people who are unaware of this, if you are a software company and you want to eventually get sold or go public, if your professional services is too high as a SASS company, they're going to say no, you're not a SASS company, you are a services company. So I think it's a probably well, when I was at Breako, who was probably around a twenty five or thirty percent mark, like you, do not cross that mark where they're basically saying, like your services team makes too much money. And so we're like we need to get all these customers up and live, and they like to use our team because we have a lot of experience in that. And what we wound up doing, and using companies like yours, was to say, Hey, listen, we have a... |
| 00:16:02 - 00:18:02 |
...small team, we would like to dedicate our small team to just working on new and problems, but we also have some sort of productionalized professional services packages to get your team so you can become experts on that. So two notes on that. It doesn't have to be exactly a product set, but if you would keep bumping into the same problem. Like for us, it was like we're building the same video portal over and over and over and over again. George, do you want to do that? And if I'm George any other company, it's basically like short, can you give us enough business so that we can dedicate somebody to that? And that's that's a good thing for the professional services vendor to ask because, if you know, we're talking about break over the example, but whatever company is like, we're going to get you all trained up on Breako and you get you dedicate your you get maybe a PM and a software developer in there or maybe a whole team, and they work on a project and then another one doesn't pop up and they forget everything and then we call you up eight months later and you're like, oh, we got too much work going on. You like yeah, we don't have the right so and so. So there are depends on the volume stuff that comes in, but it's basically like, first of all, if if I'm calling up you know your company to help me out of a delivery problem, I I will fight to death on this with internally inside the software company that work for. Don't start making George Sell my software. That's that's that's that's not a delivery problem you're trying to solve. You're trying to solve a sales problem, and I hate that because it's like, oh well, let's give them some skim in the game, let's see if they can get their customers to start using our stuff. And I'm like, that's not where we're trying to solve here. So my tip there is that if your software company, in your services team, is overwhelmed and you need a good batch of partners to do bring them in and and start funneling business over to them and don't make them carry a Quarta, because that's trying to solve for a different problem. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think there are times, though, we're not necessarily to sell your product, but to level... |
| 00:18:02 - 00:20:00 |
...up the product of value, right, because I can't say how many times I've gone in and I have a client. They want to buy this, this software platform, the software platform. What's to sell it to the client? But they haven't. Neither one of them have been able to justify within the overall org. But when you start, when you when you can now paint the picture of gears. If we plug this into this overall change plan and this overall kind of transformation. Now it makes it. Now it turns into this key that unlocks all this other stuff that maybe would have happened with sception. My opic view of it, thousand percent agree and I still think that's a different problem. That's that's being solved like that. Is You, as your company, saying we want to we've got a palette of different things that we're trying to do to help you as a company out. And why? Oh, you need a video strategy, okay, we'll bring in this. Are you need an accounting platform? We know which is the best accounting platform to do, but that is not bad accounting platform to say, Hey, George, I'm not going to kick you any more services revenue unless you bring us ten new clients. I just don't agree with that thing. It's like I brought you origin because I don't have a big enough team and we're being told not to hire anymore because I can too much money, or or we don't want to be seen as a service coming. We don't want a large services business. We want to work on small or sorry, sorry about a smaller set of clients, but maybe work on the next Gen thing that we want to do, like the big problem and then and then get these repeatable solutions for somebody else to go deliver on. Yeah, that makes sense. So let's put ourselves in the shoes of an executive at an organization going through some sort of change. They bought some software from Software Vendor X, they've got their professional services team and they maybe got someone like us in there as well. What should that those executives do better? How can they be better in leveraging our firm to be better? Be Better? Well, as you know, I'm a big fan of the minem cookie at the kickoff meeting. So always make sure you feel the consultants well, but now I so be and for in order to be a better customer, you have to be... |
| 00:20:00 - 00:22:03 |
...involved and and you need to what am I trying to go for here is basically say be involved in the in the pro in the project, and also be meeting the vendor every step of the way. The classic example I'll give on this is like you have a kickoff meeting and they don't bring the right people. Who Kickoff meeting and they haven't explained the reason why they're bringing the software stuff in. So then is a vendor. You know, you might have a project manager in a bunch of developers suddenly start doing the sales thing, like no, well, we can do acts and we can do why? Because it hasn't been explained better to them. Right. So so that's like step number one, and then it's like making sure that they have the right amount of resources associated with a product, product and everything. I will say one thousand percent the biggest problem I ever see is by the time you start building stuff and now it's an agile thing. So you know, you want to get like business process testing in a repeatable fashion in having people actually go in and do those things. And you know, we joked about this of like having to have like pizza parties where people come in and start like going through and bank kicking around in the software and stuff like that, because we need a dedicated hour from ten or fifteen different people. And that tells me like you have to bribe their employees because they don't understand what the importance of it is for their job that they need to get to be done. You know, if you're talking about the example where it's software vendor, EX's professional services company and then your company's also working in there like well, don't pay an adversarial relationship between the two vendor companies right like, and that happens just so much where while I go, I don't know about George and what he's got going on with his team x why it's like that is not the way to get successful. Stuff like hitting vendors against each other. I actually not if you ask me, three months ago. So I haven't seen that much at all recently. But it still happens and it's happening on a project, it seem, very recently, and that's that's just one of those things that don't. Don't meeting the teams to death and put this massive government structure in where it's not as important. Like I understand having status meetings and everything... |
| 00:22:03 - 00:24:03 |
...like that, but like over or micromanaging all of the vendors and all of the teams is just that's going to would's drive your cost up and then slow things down as well too, and people don't do that. They it's a level of trust that you have to build up in and you know. So the software vendor and the services company need to make sure that they can establish trust and credibility fast so that they feel like they don't have three to five checkens every week because the vendor, the customer, feels like that's the only way that they're going to get answers. That's just a huge problem right. Like, you know, everybody needs to be better about communication and things like that. So those are those are some of the areas where I see, you know, companies have to do it. But like, there's nothing worse than the business owner that signs the check or signs the contract and then just disappears. And you need decisions to be made and they can't be making decisions. And unfortunately that's why every contact cracked I've ever written has like response time on questions with, you know, maybe not even dollar charges, but like time charging. You know, think these this will push things out if we don't have the answers to the questions that we need. If, you know, for one, critical things pop up and everything because, as the client, you you have the vision, or hopefully you do have the vision, because you're spending a bunch of money, the one would hope, but no one. You need to be an advocate for your own vision and that requires, I don't care how scoped out something is, I don't know how care how planned out it is like. You need to carry that vision into all of the various touch points in the meanings and if you if you don't have the time, you can't do this, then you need to start going hip the hip with someone that you know is going to be able to absorb that vision and carry it through. I think some of the best successes we've had is where someone on my team or myself is like you get enough time into at the beginning and along the way that now you can kind of be a proxy in a room for that client that has the vision and they feel confident that you have the same exact vision. Is there any bigger Unicorn than that? Like business analysts that can that can get that vision down and then break... |
| 00:24:03 - 00:26:00 |
...it down in business annals, is what I'm using the sort of a generalized function instead of the term but and then be able to relate that those business terms back to the tech people to say like no, this is where we need to do in the technology. Like if you find those people, the just unicorns because they can take that vision and they understand everything that needs to go and then they can start the blocking and tackling with the tech in the business seems to make sure that requirements are broken down in a way that the the tech teams can understand what they need to go build without having to go through just back and forth and back and forth on requirement, you know, clarifications and everything. Yeah, yeah, the moment that you can feel comfortable not being in the room is such a such a relief at that point, right. Yeah, yeah, how do you? How do you? How do you dress that now? Are you just getting hit to hip in the beginning and you're making sure that you're just understanding a thousand percent what they're trying to do and repeating it back to them, and I'm just curious on your approach and that. Yeah, I think back to your you know, but what we said before as far as you got to form a team of one across yourself and the client and whatever other partners are selfwe vendors are in there a lot of upfront time, you know, workshopping it and talking about what the future is and what the vision is and what's it going to be like to live in this new environment. So it's kind of less about scope at that point, right, and and features, and it's more about let's let's talk about what a shared vision of the future is, and then, and then always carrying that through along the way. And then, you know, going out to some some restaurants and having some drinks and get to know someone at a more personal level also helps right problem with the way things are these days, with the you know, people will say this in ten years. Is a somewhat of a pandemic going on and it's not easy to go out and do the restaurant thing and things like that. But but what is that? It? That's a relationship, right, that's that's that's a relationship and and and that's why those things are most important, because it's important to build relationships outside of just the our meeting and go from there. And that's that's why those things are important. Yeah, because because in those dinners, in... |
| 00:26:00 - 00:28:00 |
...those drinks or whatever you're doing outside of the office, that's when you start telling each other what your fears are. That's where you start telling people, well, you know, what am I measured on? What am I afraid of? What's going to happen? What are these like disaster scenarios that could happen? And our best successes are when, you know, you really let the down that guard on both sides to talk about how I measure areed, what am my fears. You just hit on something that I again relate this back to the SASS world instead of out the spoke world, but it relates to both. I just hum you know, when you've got a lot of project managers reports you, you just it becomes your you've got the psychiatrist office that people are just walking in and they're like, oh my God, he's going up a status call Bob. Then there just hammered me and X, Y and Z, and it's exactly what you just said. They're like, what's let's let's peel this back here. Why do you think this person is unloading on you? They're scared. They are sitting on top of a big project that somebody's paying, that their bosses or their bosses boss is paid a lot of money, or they made a decision, or their boss made a decision to go forward with your software or this project to be built, and they either now they're scared for some reason. Maybe maybe timelines unclear, maybe technology decisions are unclear, there are at a point where they're not sure which way they should go or whatever, but the fact of the matter is these people are suddenly scared and they are wetting out on you and the best thing you can do is feel the empathy for the client. That was super important in the SASS world, because it's like, again, they made a you know, especially when you're working in all startups, it's like they went with us instead of the industry standard and they are now scared because they could have just gone with the industry standard and been fine, but but they didn't and they took a chance with us. So we need to be better about our report ring like by did you send your status report out twenty four hours in advance, or did you just drop a bomb on them in the in the meeting? Like, let's you know, all these things right, like. So let's not do that and let's be open and communicate, like I would... |
| 00:28:00 - 00:30:00 |
...always tell my teams if you got some bad news, first of all, probably found out there was an idea that there might be some bad news before the you know, way before popped up. Somebody should be saying, like, this could be an issue later on and just popping these things up early, because if you raise something up as an issue two, three, four, six weeks before it happens, it's there and people can understand it. If you're like hey, yeah, there's a massive problem. We were supposed to deliver this tomorrow, but now it's going to be three weeks late, and it's like really three weeks late, like you're just finding that out today on our status called it's like and and you know, so open transparency. As you can tell, I'm very tactical, so I can sure you can pull these things up into the more strategic sense and it's well, I think. I think we've created the perfect formula. You need to be an advocate for your own vision and you need to tell us your deepest, darkest fears and secrets, and then I'll be well, and I think both of us as professional services executives. We give everyone out there permission that if you have a consultant that comes into your status meeting and all of a sudden something switched from green to red and this is the first time you're hearing about it, you can throw them out the window. On behalf of all consultants out there. You have permission. Drives me crazy. I believe I said this is another podcast, but but for those people aren't following you from podcast podcast, I remember that there was a project manager that used to sit in the cube next to me and I remember her being on the phone with the developer and she's like, okay, it's it's twelve and fifty. I'm not lying, I'm not hating this. It's twelve and fifty eight. The meeting starts at one o'clock. I'm going to hit the stats, I'm going to hit it, I'm going to send it right now. And then they hit it and then started up the conference meeting and I'm like no, I'm like never, ever, ever do that to anybody, like that's just the worst thing you can let's drop a big bomb on them, but like let's bury it in a status report and hopefully it doesn't come up on the call. Like yeah, so, anyways, I digress. But yes, you have got a hundred thousand percent permission to throw that person out of a window if you need... |
| 00:30:00 - 00:32:00 |
...to. You heard it here. First of all. All Right, Jeff. So anything else from the hey don't do this with with consultants that you could think about? That could be reppy a whole podcast series and in themselves. But, like you know, it's just don't just don't hide the messages. Be Open and transparent. Bring problems up when they're when there's a little bit of smoke, and if they got resolved, and that's great, like hey, that probably I we resolved. Oh the great, that's Great. That's great. Yeah, but we got this other thing. It's hanging out there. Let's stick are and so I'm just big on the open in the communication scope, stuff out of advance. Don't bill ourly. Now, I'm just saying, but but in general, do your upfront work much as you can be. You know, if you're if you're working for a software company, have that flexibility that you need to do, but make sure you don't get subservient and have some things in process to be able to take care of these inevitable things that pop up when they do, because it's software and stuff happens. So that's great, great advice. And on that note I'd like to end with Jeff. What's the best advice you have ever personally received? Oh, my God, ever, or just in business, or ever ever in life, anything. So I'm trying to keep this clean because my dad was like a plumber from Chelsea and, you know, from Korean War. So like, I've tried it. It's funny because the best piece of advice that keeps popping into my head. Maybe not while I was running services so, but there was a situation where, I mean the situation was about like a promotional type of situation, but the end of the day, I could not get my boss, my my manager, to do something that was super critical to me, and even though the manager agreed that that that thing should happen, and I went to my mentor, and I think everybody you have a mentor, and maybe I should just say always have a mentor and just sign off. But like my mentor said to me, okay, if if this thing keeps dragging out and in they've already agreed that it's the right thing to do, you put it the top of your list every time you meet... |
| 00:32:00 - 00:33:35 |
...with this person, which should be weekly, and then the next time you meet with them you say, listen, you either can't do something about it or you won't do something about it. And I brought that into that meeting and the person was offended yet proud at the same time, which was like wow, I can't believe you raised it up to like this, like survivor, like tribal council level of stuff. But yeah, but she was like tough negotiator. I understand. And and then that that thing happened in that person always respected me more because you took a stand, took a stand for myself and things like that, but didn't do it in an overemotional manner. So, yeah, I love that. It's hard to argue right they you either can or or you won't. There's no arguments in between there. Yeah, right, all right. Well, I love it. Jeff, thanks so much for being here. Really had a great time. Sam Hereman, appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Technology should serve vision, not set it at and tevity. We design clear blueprints for organization readiness and digital transformation that allow companies to chart new paths. Then we drive the implementation of those plans with our client partners in service of growth. Find out more at did EWW DOT HAVEYCOM was podcast you've been listening to see skeet blueprint. If you like what you've heard, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you get your podcast to make sure you never miss a new episode. And why you're there. We'd love it if you could leave a raiding just give us however many starts you think we user. Until next time. |
