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Why do we make everything so damn complicated when it doesn't need to be? And what do operating frameworks have to do with helping us think about our feelings? And also, I learned that it's not the best thing to just shove those feelings deep down inside and ignore them. Today I'm joined by Pam Kasanki. Pam Is the chief Revenue Officer of e O s. e O s is the entrepreneurial operating system. It's a framework in a cadence for how you can simplify things within your organization full transparency. We've adopted this within our organization and it has been transformative. I'm a big fan, but PAM is fantastic. Not only is she a marketer and a chief revenue officer, she's an elite athlete. She's captain coach. She's competing in two world series, two World Cups and two world championships across three different sports. So she's your classic underachiever. Please welcome Pam. You're listening to C suite blueprint, the show for C suite leaders. Here we discuss nobs, approach just to organizational readiness and digital transformation. Let's start the show, Pam. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So I figured softball question. Why do humans just tend to constantly complicate things and insert more complexity? Well, I that's a big, big questions. Watermelon for sure. Yeah, you know, my understanding is that, you know, in my human experience, for whatever that's worth, is that there's kind of people that naturally tend to gravitate towards simplicity and those that naturally tend to gravitate towards complexity. But in the end, kind of the this the idea of entropy, always gets us. There's just no way to escape it. kind of this like sense or measure of uncertainty or randomness Kinda is out to get us all. You know,... |
| 00:02:02 - 00:04:00 |
...it's kind of a natural order of things and I would say that just it feels like over the with the digital age, that curve is just exponentially exploding and everything's going faster than anyone can keep up with. So at some point complexity is just here to stay. Yeah, it's hard to avoid the laws of physics. Right. I was prepped for this. It was actually Um one of Stephen Pinker's books. He talks about the role of entropy and if the if the universe itself is destined to just maximize entropy and thus maximize complexity in randomness, then of course humans are and of course organizations are. and Um, if you can't avoid that equation, then you need to insert something. You need to insert some energy and some focus and a dedicated effort to actually, you know, clean up that complex the complexity and simplify things. And that's what I love about us. The entrepreneurial operating system is first and foremost acknowledges that role of visionary and integrator. And I you know, once you realize that, then then the visionary doesn't need to waste all that energy on simplifying the complex and and the integrator can really just, you know, go full on, full court press into constantly, you know, simplifying things. Um, you know, I'm curiously you know what drew you to us. And you know what do you get excited about with that relationship of a of a visionary and integrator? You know, I, Um, I kind of accidentally stumbled into it, Um, when I I was coming into a leadership team of a real estate group in Minneapolis and I was the head of marketing and Um, before I had cone into this entrepreneurial world. I had lived in Corporate America for twelve years, in fact that we opened out advertising in Chicago, and so the two worlds were completely just foreign to one... |
| 00:04:00 - 00:06:01 |
...another. And yet when I walked into this company, I walked into the best meeting of my life and it was like shocking. I was like wait, how did these people figure out how to have a super effective meeting that like took away all the bullshit really of like politicking and, you know, stay in your lane and all this kind of gross stuff that humans insert, power, trippy, Ego centric stuff which you never really get rid of. But you have to like this idea of kind of this entropy world. You have to actively combat it. There actually has to be this intentionality or purpose behind what you're doing to kind of mitigate some of the damage that that can do and just unnecessary complexity, added obstacles and Energy Busters, right. And so you know, to me the e O s system is this beautiful simplification of all of these really complex things and it just if you it's like just that guiding light, you know, that that thing that grounds you um to be able to just move easier. And I have to admit, like when I was young, I was like, you know, get away with me, get away from me with structure, like don't tell me what to do and I will make the roles. Thank you very much, uh. And so I you know, I had a hard time adjusting to it, frankly, you know, with rules and I just suddenly now I'm feeling the beauty of those things and it it actually sets you free. There's a lot of freedom in the structure. You know, Um, I think I was telling you for that. I have a couple of good friends in NASA, which is kind of weird. I have to to female rugby player friends in the U S national team that Um that I played with the World Cups and they went to space and I kept thinking of like one an incredible journey that is. |
| 00:06:01 - 00:08:00 |
And you know, imagine how fun that is to be out in space in this anti gravity world and you're exploring. You know, it's all fun and games, until suddenly you're not tethered to the spaceship. Then it's just like Chaosk and fear. Yeah, you know, I'm the same as you. I I've always been really resistant to rules and and it it seems like it would be boring and Um. But yeah, I find that that, if, if it's the right it's not really rules in structure as much as it is just, you know, it's the simplification right. It's it's saying, Hey, if you if you need three to five things that you need to focus on and and things, and you'll get it done because you're there's gonna be lots of complicated stuff in there that that happens, I mean, but then that frees you up to really be creative in those spaces because you know, you know that those three or five things are gonna get done, so you can fill that space with all sorts of creative problem solving and rather than getting distracted. It's a good point, you know, just coming in back to simplicity and being comfortable with why that's healthy and actually helps you go faster. Sometimes it feels like simplicity and focus can almost ruin visionaries, Um Mojo. And actually, you know, when you think about the U S system in particular, and I think you'd asked me kind of this, why gravitate towards it? It actually compartmentalizes energy, it doesn't destroy it and you know, if you think about going this whole laws of physics. Right, it's not. It's not created or destroyed, it's kind of like harnessed and organized and the energy doesn't go anywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like if there's an issue list for everything, you know there's something that you're solving for, you know, in the in the mediate ninety days, and then there's stuff that you kick the can on and say yeah, important, thanks for labeling that, naming that thing, and we'll move it over there and the ideas get captured and I think that's part of what I think gives everybody... |
| 00:08:00 - 00:10:00 |
...a little bit of Sigh, a sense of relief that you know, it has its place. It can be on a one year plan, it could be on a three year plan, it could be on a ten year kind of visionary picture, but it doesn't mean it's like, you know, hey, thanks for playing nice. Try. You know, we're not going to do that. You know, I can, it can, but right, you can say no to things, but you can also just say, you know, pause, but it's labeled somewhere. It's organized. Yeah, I love that. You know something I was thinking about that really amused me after our last conversation, because you you're an elite athlete and then talking about complexity. Something I started thinking about is the postgame interview. I always get a laugh out of that because it's like what do you really expect the athlete to say? But you know, let's say I'll watch golf and Dustin Johnson'll they'll let's say that you know what, you know, how did you do it? And he's like, Oh, I got the hole in the ball and less strokes. You know, it's like, you know, like we got more touchdowns the the team and you laugh at that. You're like that's the most idiotic answer, but you know it's so simple. But then you step baculate. But that's why they win, because, like you can get distracted with all the other nonsense, but like if you get the ball in the whole with fewer strokes, you're gonna win right. And ensure there's other stuff involved, but like, if that's at the top of your mind, then you're probably gonna Win Right. Yeah, it's really funny. So I played on the National Rugby Team for twelve years and I played a game called sevens in a game called fifteens. They are very different types of games, different strategies, and there are there are these moments in the evolution of the sport where something will change across the globe, like some sort of strategic tactical elements. So, for instance, in Sevens Um when I first started playing, it was almost um you if you kicked the ball away, it was kind of like a a big no no, like the strategy of the game was just keep the ball in hand, right. If you kick away possession, that's just a problem. And then all of a sudden, like somebody said, well, that's stupid, let me just go kick the thing and now... |
| 00:10:01 - 00:12:01 |
...a field possession and you know, and they just thought, well, if the if the goal is to go get the ball across the line on the other side, you know, maybe if I kick it just run towards it, I'll get there faster. And he sort of got one person kind of did it, or like one team, and then all of a sudden everybody's cooking again. It's like you you can, you can just see how the game itself got caught up in x's and Ose and they forgot this like basic part of what is the objective? It's to go put the ball down in the tri zone on the other side. So figure out how to do that. And does it need to be more complicated and a little, you know, a bit of luck, a bit of smash mouth. Yes, their strategic blaze and such, but, you know, don't get caught up in the rules of like the strategy of the game to the point where you can't play. And you know. So it's kind of interesting to come back down to the simplicity of it all. Yeah, yeah, and what you know, and then turning that back to us. What what I what what I love is the cadence of every single week you're looking at those the rocks or the goals that you've set and for the quarter, and you're also looking at a very simple scorecard that says, here's the type of stuff that we're measuring. And and I'll tell you our own personal experience. You know, we we went through iterations of making that very complicated ourselves and then and then making it simple again and um, but then you boil it down to it, you know, for ourselves it was like, well, we need to keep our employees happy and growing, we need to keep our clients happy and growing and we need to attract new clients and employees. Right, and it's like, if you're just looking at that every week, then it's it's hard to do much wrong. Um. And what what I found interesting is that the minute that you take some one of those things off of your weekly cadence, Um, I'll be a little vulnerable on where I messed up one time. Is We had one that measured every time, you know, how much we were communicating internally with the team, like executive internal communications with the team. And, Um, you know we're doing a great job of it. And we got to a point where we said, hey, like, isn't this... |
| 00:12:01 - 00:14:03 |
...just part of doing our jobs? Now we don't need this on our scorecard anymore. Yeah, and so we took it off of our scorecard and then I think we just got busy with other priorities and then it fell to the back burner and then people started complaining that we weren't community, we weren't transparent, we weren't communicating enough. Yeah, and it's like what are we thinking? And so then you add to back in and it's like, if you don't measure it, you know it's really not going to happen. It feels like that's true. Well, I mean guilty, right, I mean we're all guilty, but there's just never there's not a perfect way to do any of this stuff, but there's a way to strengthen Um and, you know, keep your eye on the prize and the focus right and the tools will actually help you. Right. That's that's what I love about it, is that there's just a natural tendency to screw up like so the tools always just kinda keep you honest with what. Hey, you know, something feels stuck, something feels complicated, something feels like it's not quite working. Well, what do we have in our toolbox that might help us, you know, get unstuck or think through or through some ceiling that we're clearly having? You know, the first thing we have to do is kind of name that thing, right. So as soon as you can kind of name it, you're like, okay, well, now what's the real route of issue? And you ask about you know, five, five times you asked the word kind of well, why? Why is that? And then suddenly you realized, well, whole, wait a minute, right, like we just didn't we stop measuring that thing, right, like we didn't suddenly turn into a a non transparent company. We're not hiding something, right, but that's the stuff that people make up in their head when they don't hear from you, right. So, like, void of information, humans just tend to like make up BS and and then. So that kind of sense of communication is critical. So I love that story and because it's just not simple, right, simple, yeah, yeah, and it's it's extra frustrating when you know that your intentions and your values haven't changed. You know, it's just execution, right, which is um which is why you need to be rigorous and and kind of always, always keeping an eye on that. You know, an operating system kind of is. I mean, it's about the execution, right. |
| 00:14:03 - 00:16:00 |
It's not about like, it's not about giving you answers. That's the other thing. Like us doesn't like solve some problem if you're in the wrong marketplace or selling the wrong thing. Right, US isn't like it's not meant to somehow be smarter than you or, you know, fix you for being broken. Like, you're not broken. No one's broken. It's just a way of helping you execute your own brilliance of a vision and of the business that you want to run and whatever the hell you want from Your Business. It can help you get there with just framework. Yeah, I mean it's it's you know, I always drew all the comparison to Um, you know, in software delivery. And you know, I've had so many clients that are like Um, you know, we we think that we just need to move to agile or be, you know, more have better agile, you know, delivery practices, and it's like yeah, but maybe you're building the wrong software or maybe you've got the wrong team here, right, you know, and that's when some of that like. You know, these are all tools in the toolbox to be to to be able to leverage Um you know. Yeah, I guess. If you're an executive at us and I'm an executive on a company the runs the US, does that mean? Can you reboot my operating system every once in a while when I'm going off the rails? You know what the this is the class I needed. Sometimes you're ready turn it off and then turn it back on. All right, everything's better now. You know what I love, though, Um. So, pulling it back to that integrator visionary relationship, you know, I'm curious your experience of how does it not turn into a dynamic or how do you avoid it becoming a dynamic where one person just feels like they're cleaning up the other person's mess. All the time. You're inserting kind of a maybe a universal problem, but I'm not sure if that is the problem. But, um, it seems like, you know, visionaries and integrators are doing a dance right there, the ying and the Yang. They're the dynamic duo. Um. So I think you have to start with the know thyself piece. You know... |
| 00:16:00 - 00:18:00 |
...who are you? What is you? What is your greatest contribution? Um, what is something that you hate doing and you suck at? Maybe something that you're always like, you're always stuck doing and you're really good at it, but you're actually like, you know, you're burned out from it, you don't want to do it anymore. Right, you're recognizing those things and you know you look at things like these, these profiling tools, like we use Kolby in the US, and you know, you have to know the type of person that you are and how you like to absorb information, how fast you like to go, how many facts you need, all that stuff. You know, and then knowing yourself and your tendencies helps you pause and say, okay, how does my how do I show up? Right, it's this whole idea of like mental health and centering. I think that allows you to become a better leader by design, a better partner and colleague. You know, just just take a pause, take a breath and say, you know, where is my is this serving me? Is the strength of mind serving me, or is this strength of mind in this particular moment actually causing a problem that we don't need? And I need to trust somebody else who, happens to me, maybe better at this or maybe they have you know, there's a lot of same answers to the to the same problem. There's coming at it from another angle and maybe that's the right approach. So I think that's the start for both people. Right. Yeah, really, but he's got to work harder than another person. It's it's it's a shared deal. That's a good point. That in the partner aspect, because this is just raw human relationship stuff, right, in any partnership and like man, any like marriage or anything. You know, if you you gotta, you gotta assume positive intent. That's that's where you gotta start, right. You gotta be Trut your stuff, like you said, but like if you are keeping count of like, am I doing more than the other person is, that's just going to go off the rails really quickly. And then I think it's always a reminder of the reminding yourself the value you're getting out of... |
| 00:18:00 - 00:20:00 |
...that relationship. You know, the the because I think sometimes, let's say, the visionary might get frustrated, Oh, so and so is just slowing me down with, you know, by inserting x, Y and Z, and the integrator might be frustrated that, oh, the visionary is just making all these messes and Um, and that's probably worse when you're stressed out or, you know, having slept or you know. But if you can remember that positive intent and remember and and not keep count that you're in this together. Um, and you know what I've what we found internally is even even though this is a business, so my partner Ben and I, you know I'm stepping out of the integrator role, but but it was visionary integrator. We would even go to the Berkshires for like a meditation retreat for the two of us, like the scene that you would with with your spouse or your partner. Right that you've got to just find the time, otherwise you're going to start to grade on each other. Well, it's not even you know, it's it's you have to consider the health of your relationship a true investment. It's not a find the time nice to have. Really like. That's actually, you know, just flipping that to say that this isn't as important for us to trust each other this way, to have a healthy dynamics, so that we aren't making stuff out, we aren't filling voids with head trash. Um. You know, I actually have a visionary integrator duo that I took it so far that they went on. They created a love path like literally a spousal conversation around, you know, stuff that truly marriages will deal with in terms of what do you see? What do you want? They actually even outlined, okay, when things hit the fan, what are the four steps that we would default too? So they even put structure around a moment in time that says the if, in fact, one wants out or something changes, what is the kind of like break the glass four step process. We go do this. I mean, you know so, and they're just constantly keeping these type of circles connected and investing in the in their health. |
| 00:20:00 - 00:22:00 |
Um, you know. And the other thing I I heard you kind of say around just this like positive intent or assuming that or just, you know, being open minded to that. What are they getting? What do they get? What are you gaining from that relationship? So Dan Sullivan has a great book, you know, Head of strategic coach, in the gap and the gain and Ben Hardy, and it's just it was a reminder to me how much I'll even get myself caught in in this gap thinking instead of this gain thinking. And so for like here's an example. So just recently I had an experience where I was frustrated that I um that I was not getting the right type of review or specific detail on on something that was really important, and it just Um, I had given, I have given a leader in the company something to review. There was a sense of yeah, it's fine, keep moving. It turns out it wasn't, and I'm sitting here going Gosh, you know, like this, why didn't I get this type of feedback? And you know, one of my als reminded me and says like that's not their gift, that's not what they love to do, that's not what they don't like to edit. They're not the person who's going to give you the detailed reviewed of things like. That's how they fly. And instead of holding that against them, I could say, wait a minute, you're right, like they're just the wrong that's the wrong person to be thinking through the details with me. I actually needed to redirect that energy and not try to force something that wasn't going to fit. Interesting. It's funny that like building up that laundry list of frustrations in your head is like yet another like entropy, example, where you're just you're you're inserting more complexity and and then that all that energy is now energy that cannot be used to actually be productive. Right, like the bigger that list gets, the less productive things you can get, and so you need to simplify. Well, you know, it's funny. We call that head trash and it's like a lovely just term of you know, all the things. But in the US community, because I'm a profession on the US, implement as well, and so... |
| 00:22:00 - 00:24:00 |
...you know, I kind of practice what I preach and there's all of these interesting moments where the community starts to learn this language of like when they catch themselves. And you know, part of the whole trick of this stuff is just naming the thing you're feeling and thinking and being able to just say, hold on a second. I feel cluttered. I feel complex, you know, I feel like there's things happening, you know, and we can say now that sounds like head trash around that thing. You're adding complexity to it. You're filling gaps that do not need to be filled. What if you looked at it this way or just cut yourself some slack here and just, you know, this is what it is. It's not this and you know, break through that move forward. You know it happens constantly, but it's it's good to know that that's you know, it's once you just even if you say that, it gives people relief like Oh yeah, that's a bunch of stuff. Yeah, yeah, a common language is so great to accelerate and defuse those types of situations. Because I know myself. I I tend to like let the frustration go in turn off, like I don't even like identify it right away. But what I've learned is if I could just say hey, I'm frustrated and I don't know why, but I'm going to figure it out, you know, by the end of the day, like that's a huge difference from just, you know, being frustrated the Guy Right. That's a huge step. That is so massive. I have to tell you. People forget that step, you know, and actually just say they get quiet, they get an insular uh, you know, you start to politic even you're you know, the energy is getting directed somewhere else. You're, you know, pushing it on other people, that stuff, but just naming that. God, I am frustrated. Right when you say those words, it forces you to do something about it and hopefully people around your scene you know. Well, well, why, let's break that down as something happened. Why might you be feeling this way? Like, tell me about your feelings, describe that thing, you know, and and eventually you'll just start digging and go, Oh my God, you know, this is, this is actually the thing that happened and and I'm feeling something that may or may... |
| 00:24:00 - 00:26:00 |
...not even be there. But, Pam, I don't want to talk about my feelings. I want to bottle them up and push them deep, deep, deep down. Oh my God, we all need to be therapy, you know. Bottom line is but yeah, funny. The other US common language thing I really love is on the issue processing. So, for those that aren't familiar to us, you do you do weekly issue processing. You have a list of issues and with your team and like the labeling what type of an issue it is is so huge, right, like because you could talk around a problem with so many different words and it could really confuse the fact. But like if you can just get your team aligned, like Hey, is this a people problem? Is a process problem? What kind of problem is this, then like you can very get quickly aligned. Okay, we at least know the category of problem it is, and that I've found that that accelerates our conversations by an order of magnitude at least. Oh my God, totally Um, and it's a skill and it's an art to be able to just do it really well. I always say issues have babies, right. Are you talking about the issue parents? Are you're talking about the issue baby? Like really kind of dig into the root, right. We're always talking about identifying the root issue, and it's not always Um, right at the surface, right, we tend to when we think about solving issues. The process is usually identified, the thing you're actually supposed to be talking about, because the rest of it's kind of a distraction or a symptom of something larger. And so if the idea is to really just get that thing rooted out at the very very tip of the issue. Then you'll solve it for the greater good forever. That's kind of ideal. Once you've identified it, you're discussing that thing and you know there's a more strategical or logical flow to the discussion and you're not getting distracted by talking around something, which is usually where we can get lost. We can get off on some never ending trail of you know, a rabbit hole, and then suddenly there's a solve. |
| 00:26:00 - 00:28:00 |
Even if it's the first step. It doesn't mean you can solve it all with a magic wand overnight, but you're taking an active step to go do to combat that thing, and that's called I d S. and usually, you know, the opposite of that, which is what most tend to do, is D I s. You know, we'll actually just start discussing. There's like a vomit of the mouth around how you're feeling, around what happened. There's a description of the thing and that's where people can kind of or they'll jump in with a solve. The other things you can say. As soon as somebody says something, it's like I got it, I got an idea for you, which you know it might be good, might be bad, but who knows. Like, let's try to get a little bit more focused on what we're actually solving for. We're talking about relationships and feelings and touchy feely stuff and Bobbiting head trash out of your brain. Like, who would have thought, when we were talking about an operating framework for companies, that we would get into so many fun topics? Yeah, well, you know, humant, being human is is complicated. Turns out we are all that. You know, it used to be this adage that it's funny when I was growing up at like growing up in business and we'll burn out. I had this sense, maybe it was part of my old school, my dad's kind of world of things. And you know, business is business and business isn't personal. This whole phrase is that business isn't personal. I mean, it's just we've just shattered that right. Business is personal. You are personal. This is personal, all of this, especially now when you know we're on zooms and you can literally see into my kitchen, you know, and you can hear my dog barking and my you know, the baby's crying and like life is happening, whether you want to pretend it is or not, and we carry things into the room and we carry things out of the room, and so that is part of it, right. You're it's very personal. It is a big one. Yeah, you know, one thing that we've had to learn is is the baggage that people bring into the company from other places. You know, we we have our values and we... |
| 00:28:00 - 00:30:00 |
...live up to them and you start to realize that, like people will be like, yeah, I hear you saying that, but I'm waiting for the moment when you show me that that's not true, because I've been beaten down in my last couple of jobs, right, and and being able to understand that, that that people are coming with that baggages, isn't it? I mean, I guess that's more reason to have all of that clarity and the framework and the right rocks and the right everything, because the less noise you can have, the more room you can you can leave for people to kind of like work through the baggage and work through the feelings. And Yeah, it's a big it's a big deal. And you know, and when I think about the U s community, we have this almost this requirement Mojo that happens, which is an abundant minded community. We were creating that actively. We're working towards that, we're practicing that, we're calling each other out on it and if you start to think about what that means, it's the opposite of fear. Right. It's an APP ops of less than Um. We're not coming it from at it from a deficit, we're coming at it from a gain perspective, gap versus game. I mean, that's what abundance mindedness is. It's not easy and when people join they don't realize the baggage they have to shed. And it's a it's an unlearning process. You have to actually actively unlearned things that made you not feel safe before. And so if we can create an environment of, you know, this kind of sense of yes, we are all here to do the right thing and it may not be perfect, it may not it may be messy at times. So what we have the tools and the value system to break through that, then suddenly it doesn't feel like we're starting from a place of your out to get me. The scarcity model is is a really dangerous one. You know, I know something I always I used to combat that is Um. You know, we've worked with lots of clients and when you see the scarcity model, you see people kind of politicking to get a certain role because there's only one role... |
| 00:30:00 - 00:32:00 |
...for them to get. And and so I I always talk about internally that we want to help you grow, whether it's here or elsewhere. So if you know, that helps us bring the abundance. If they're if we're hitting a ceiling here within this organization, there's still an abundance out there and we'll help you with that. Right. But but, like if if you're viewing it a scarcity within the organization, then bad things are going to happen. And I think it's good. And then we have alumni come back to us because of that, you know, because you just help people, right, it's simple. Yeah, yeah, right, if you just you know, it's a great or good growth minded sense of things and you know everyone is going to find their home Um. And it actually, you know, when you think about we talk about right people, right seat a lot and if you come at even somebody not working right, there's actually a sense of I don't think this is working for you kind of thing. There's actually a growth mindedness to saying look, you know, like this isn't this isn't for you. It's not for us, and but we want to help you and like this is helping you. Right, this is like helping you, this is helping us. No one wants you to feel frustrated and stuck. We just don't. No one wants it. That's not part of it. So instead of like blame and shame game, there's actually a sense of let's find something that's even better fit for who you are, your unique skill and gift in this world. Yeah, yeah, because everyone's got one. Um just a matter of finding it. I really enjoyed this, Pam. Something I love to finish with is throughout your athlete career, your corporate career, what in your just life? What's the best advice you've ever received? Well, I mean for me in particular. There's some, there's a there's actually something that my coach from Michigan Softball, Hodge, greatest coach I've ever played, forever winning his coach in Michigan History Actually, and she she actually said she had never told an athlete this ever before. She couldn't believe she was going to say this, but she told me to try less, which is like,... |
| 00:32:00 - 00:33:36 |
I can't tell you that that this is a universal advice. There's just no way this is true for all. But for me I think it brought home something that Um really hell like. It just continues to reverberate in my life. Try less. There is you don't have all the control that you think you do. You are never as good as you as you think you are, you're never as bad as you think you are, and actually less is more, especially now when there is more out there than you could ever put your hands in your brain around. So just, you know, try less and, you know, let it go. I don't know if that's yeah, go on a vacation, don't you? Well, that advice works for my I can tell you from from experience. It works on my golf swing. If I try it less, it's a it's a much better shot, that's for sure. I love it. I love it. Well, Pam, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it, but I really appreciate the time and you know, it was really fun to talk shop with you and a little bit of science too. Love a little science interjected. Have a going, Pam. All right, take care of you've been listening to see sweet blueprint. If you like what you've heard, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you get your podcast, to make sure you never miss a new episode. And while you're there, we'd love it if you could leave a radio just give us however many starts you think we deserve. Until next time. |
